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General Support - When to use Klik, Synaptic, Adept or Aptitude in sidux?

Delphi123 - Feb 23, 2007 - 01:24 AM
Post subject: When to use Klik, Synaptic, Adept or Aptitude in sidux?

Dear friends:

I appreciate the fact that the best way to upgrade an application is to use apt-get. But I do wonder about the other GUI update tools. I would appreciate a brief explanation of when one can safely use synaptic, adept, aptitude and Klik to upgrade or install individual applications? Especially Klik It's listed under"Applications -- Install More Software" so there must have been a good reason for sidux to include it. Would appreciate a brief clarification about Klik and the other tools.

Thank you.

Benjamin

DeepDayze - Feb 23, 2007 - 01:42 AM
Post subject: When to use Klik, Synaptic, Adept or Aptitude in sidux?

Klik's kinda broken on sidux

Delphi123 - Feb 23, 2007 - 02:15 AM
Post subject:

Dear friends:

Footnote about Synptic.

I downloaded and installed Synaptic it with apt-get. I won't use it till I hear from our experts at sidux, but I would like to know whether I should select the Unstable distro under Preferences. Is that correct?

Thank you.

Benjamin

P. S. If not done already, may I suggest a brief HOW-TO from sidux on the whole matter of GUI upgrade tools, how and when and where to use them in sidux?

h2 - Feb 23, 2007 - 02:50 AM
Post subject:

Never use gui upgrade tools in sidux.

Synaptic is ok for browing around to find packages, but that's about it. Anything that requires other packages from kde or xorg to install, which happens all the time, is not safe to install in GUI.

The sooner you adapt to this idea, the happier your sidux experience will be.

Ironwalker - Feb 23, 2007 - 03:06 AM
Post subject:

I just use kpakage to brow around for pakages but always use aptitude via command line....I dont allow aptitude to add,hold,remove any pakages I dont want or allow aptitude to do anything on its own.Ya have to edit the options for this,it has a mind of its own by default which I always disable.
What h2 said is true.

As for klik,I never understood its purpose,and always was scared it was some type of spyware..lol.

rodneyck - Feb 23, 2007 - 03:40 AM
Post subject:

Ironwalker wrote:

As for klik,I never understood its purpose,and always was scared it was some type of spyware..lol.

The webpage is always slow to load for me, and you can forget about searching for packages. I could build the app from source using two toes and bake a cake (with the remaining free toes) before klik would render a result.

hmmmmmm....cake.

piper - Feb 23, 2007 - 04:02 AM
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I always thought that klik was just for live cd

craigevil - Feb 23, 2007 - 05:48 AM
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Actually klik is kinda neat. Rather than messing with installing pingus and the million dependencies it wanted I just use the klik version.

The Google apps like Googleearth and Picasa are also easy to download and run from klik.

The nice thing about klik is none of the apps, with the exception of browsers , don't tend to mess with anything else.

damentz - Feb 23, 2007 - 06:06 AM
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If you want to use a GUI package manager, go with synaptic. All the other package managers kind of suck compared to it.

Delphi123 - Feb 23, 2007 - 10:09 AM
Post subject:

Dear friends:

Thank you all for the excellent, though at times conflicting, testimony and expertise about the GUI package managers. At a bare minimum, I can use Synaptic to give me the names of the files I need to download, then switch to the konsole to actually download and install them with apt-get.

There seems to be a difference of opinion about Klik. Would appreciate a greater clarification from sidux experts about Klik. Thank you all.

Benjamin

Delphi123 - Feb 23, 2007 - 10:26 AM
Post subject:

Dear friends:

I have looked at the Klik repositories of software. I see that it basically duplicates what we have in Debian and sidux. So, I have removed Klik from the Menu Editor. It is not even an application, just a URL. That makes it much easier to ignore it.

I looked at the apt-get/Synaptic repositories. The only active ones are two SID repositories. So, it would appear to be pretty safe, I hope, to install individual packages from its database.

I would also like to add other repositories for multimedia, MS True Type fonts, etc. Any suggestions?

Thank you.

Benjamin

devil - Feb 23, 2007 - 10:45 AM
Post subject:

benjamin,
please come to irc #sidux (icon on desktop) to clarify that.

greetz
devil

dzz - Feb 23, 2007 - 12:57 PM
Post subject:

There's already an excellent "howto" on dist-upgrade: du-fixes-h2.sh (and read the forums first for current warnings)
The best "how-not-to" is: Don't do it in X!

Synaptic is an excellent GUI to browse upgradable and new, getting package info and quick check on repository status. I too use it (almost daily) but only for that

For many of us it's not a case of fear of the CLI but time spent in textmode only on a single task e.g. downloading upgrades with a slow connection. There are ways round that.

I tend to use "apt-get dist-upgrade -d" this downloads everything as a background job in X then execute at a convenient time from init 3. Often I put very large upgrades like openoffice on hold if they seem not to affect the system in general

Synaptic has a download-only option but I don't even trust that when the job is done from Konsole so easily with minimal risk.
As for other package managers I'm wary of possible conflicts with apt so I stay away from them.

Delphi123 - Feb 23, 2007 - 03:16 PM
Post subject:

Dear friends:

Thanks again for the excellent, expert opinion. Will keep it all in mind.

Benjamin

zulu9 - Feb 23, 2007 - 03:42 PM
Post subject:

klik is nice when you want have the entire app plus dependencies on e.g. a usb-stick to use it together with the liveCD. so you can have your OS on a cd and your toolkit on an usb stick wherever you are.
I would not use it on installed system as there is no upgrade path for klik packages. you would also miss one of debians greatest advantages, apt.

arjen - Feb 23, 2007 - 04:21 PM
Post subject:

Hi everyone,

Is it OK to use Adept (or Synaptic) for installing new applications? (Excluding vital/core parts of KDE.)

And how about using apt-get from a terminal in X to install new applications?

Arjen.

devil - Feb 23, 2007 - 04:35 PM
Post subject:

forget and delete adept once and for all. no good for sid!
with synaptic you could, but why?
with apt from a console you can do anything, unless dist-upgrades with x or kde.

greetz
devil

dedo - Feb 23, 2007 - 04:45 PM
Post subject:

use synaptic to have a nice gui view of package description etc, but then install and purge from console.

arjen - Feb 23, 2007 - 04:49 PM
Post subject:

All clear, thanks for your replies!

craigevil - Mar 01, 2007 - 01:20 AM
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Whats with the notice about klik not working on sidux? All of the klik packages I have tried have worked just fine, other than airstrike and that was a case of it looking for a config file that wasn't there.

DeepDayze - Mar 01, 2007 - 11:23 PM
Post subject:

I get "xxxx.cmg is not a valid .cmg file" when I try to run a klik app I downloaded. I verified the download was complete. What gives with klik on sidux?

devil - Mar 01, 2007 - 11:37 PM
Post subject:

needs fixing.

greetz
devil

shame - Mar 02, 2007 - 12:54 AM
Post subject:

Just out of interest, why is it such a problem dist-upgrading with synaptic? I don't generally use synaptic for upgrades these days but I have in the past quite a bit.
Is it just down to the dist-upgrades should be done in init3 thing or something else?

mcz - Mar 07, 2007 - 01:56 PM
Post subject:

I don't understand.
I've used Debian sid for the last two years and I have always made the upgrade with synaptic (sometimes with Smart also) without any problems.
The same with Ubuntu.

Is sidux different?

devil - Mar 07, 2007 - 02:03 PM
Post subject:

sidux is sid.
sid should not be upgraded but dist-upgraded.
dist-upgrades in synaptic will kill you sooner or later.
reason for that is mostly, that d-u should be done in init 3, as shames suspected.

greetz
devil

mcz - Mar 07, 2007 - 03:10 PM
Post subject:

O.K..
Can I use your script du-fixes-h2.sh?

devil - Mar 07, 2007 - 03:42 PM
Post subject:

sure, because that does d-u correct in init 3.

greetz
devil

rickbot - Mar 17, 2007 - 05:11 AM
Post subject:

since i've installed, i did a dist-upgrade in konsole but i've installed a number of other things with synaptic, particularly from the multimedia repo, and i haven't seen a problem yet. why should synaptic not be trusted. what are the dangers?

h2 - Mar 17, 2007 - 05:54 AM
Post subject:

main danger: dead system, dead kde, dead xorg.

Bringing in new library and system files while those files are being used, in kde for example. That's the top danger. Spend a year on irc support and you'll soon never question that again, since you'll get so tired of problems with dead systems that were upgraded/dist-upgraded in x/kde. No real solution often by the way once it's borked, sometimes a new user profile will salvage it, sometimes it won't.

Rebel - Aug 20, 2007 - 03:30 AM
Post subject:

Now I may be new to sidux (which truly rocks), Synaptic is my good buddy and so is Kpackage. I have used them in sidux and synaptic is the best of the two. If you are a little "slow" when it comes to the apt commands (LOL) then use Synaptic. It like sidux "just works" Very Happy

piper - Aug 20, 2007 - 03:36 AM
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Please don't recommend to users to use what we don't advise or recommend !! (5 months later this was brought up, again)

hubi - Aug 20, 2007 - 03:55 AM
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Rebel wrote:

I totally agree regarding sidux, but I do not agree using upgrade apps in X running a rolling release like sidux.

I myself learnt it the hard way, upgrading a stable release to a new KDE in KDE. The system was FUBAR. This is even more valid with a rolling release like sidux. Upgrades - which are real upgrades, not just security updates - in X do not have that wonderful sequence

Code:

/etc/init.d/xxx stop

/etc/init.d/xxx start

they just get messed up.

If you are firm in repairing a borked X outside of X ... but as you say ... you are slow in apt ... so I really suggest a cool, slow

Code:

smxi

It's h2's wonder script, piper has it linked in his signature.

hubi

damentz - Aug 20, 2007 - 03:43 PM
Post subject:

Some of you are paranoid over GUI package managers. You can use it, just don't upgrade running packages with it.

Synaptic also runs the same commands as you would through apt-get, so I don't understand why some of you are telling us that we can find packages with synaptic, but we need to revert back to konsole or some other terminal app to install them. That's just bogus.

hubi - Aug 20, 2007 - 04:05 PM
Post subject:

damentz,

of course you can install apps in with synaptic/kpackage et al, esp. on a fully upgraded system, but you know and I know when it is likely to be safe or not and if the system gets borked, we are not whining around for help.

But if an app starts to pull in libs or upgrade them, I am very cautious on a rolling release. I do not have a save harbour of another Linux installation on my boxes (waste of space), and I borked already one system in my life, that's enough.

hubi

wegface - Aug 20, 2007 - 04:23 PM
Post subject:

Hubi: exactly right.
damentz: us old sidux users should by now understand dependancies and a;so understand which packages are part of Xorg or kde. So MAYBE for us its safe to install things with gui package managers, even if its not to our tastes. BUT new users quite possibly do not have that knowledge, so safest bet is not to install anything with them. This has to be the advice we give- nothing bogus there.
Users who simply must use these tools for everything should use a distro in which this is safe. Sid(ux) isnt.

damentz - Aug 20, 2007 - 10:28 PM
Post subject:

Synaptic tells you what will be upgraded in order for a package to be installed. You can look through the list and determine if it's safe or not.

piper - Aug 21, 2007 - 02:27 AM
Post subject:

damentz

WHY do you argue over this ??????

Quote:

Some of you are paranoid over GUI package managers. You can use it, just don't upgrade running packages with it

sidux DOES NOT SUPPORT IT and sidux DOES NOT RECOMMEND IT (were not talking about "looking" at packages, we are talking about using a package manager as installing) so please get over your hissy about what sidux recommends and don't recommmends, and just because you d-u in x and use a package manger does not mean it is good for everyone

Period ! What is so hard to understand ??? (I am trying to be as friendly as possible here, but ... this is getting old )

damentz - Aug 21, 2007 - 02:52 AM
Post subject:

Who says I use a package manager GUI frequently? What sidux DOES NOT SUPPORT and DOES NOT RECOMMEND regarding package utilities are ideas and recommendations that work in the worst situations. They are tried and tested and people are simply content with their method of instaling and removing packages. What you don't realize is that in an open source community, software "evolves", or gradually gets stabler, faster, and just overall better from user feedback, bug reports and even patches from the minority of programmers that care for the software they use. Wouldn't you think that such a glaring bug in apt, dpkg, or synaptic would be addressed and resolved if it caused world wide system failures? You talk as if synaptic is a deadly frontend that injects malicious code into apt/dpkg to seriously inconvenience and remove the whole idea of itself.

h2 - Aug 21, 2007 - 02:58 AM
Post subject:

damentz, there's no need to give a better argument, since you yourself in your example already gave it. YOU look at the packages, and YOU determine if the install is safe or not, then YOU decide whether it's appropriate to continue. This is YOU with YOUR knowledge, not a new user, not someone who may not know what is safe or not safe. This has nothing to do with software evolution, and everything to do with user skill level. YOU will have to admit that you have a decent skill level, and that what works for YOU is not necessarily good advice for someone else.

That's all this is saying, it's fine to be a skilled user, but don't assume average users have this knowledge, they do not, and they should not be expected to. So sidux posts advice that works for all users, and users who want to do as you do, are free to do so, but you need to start realizing that you are now more skilled than some users so what is 'safe' for you is not 'safe' for them. Got it?

This isn't even worth discussing since this hasnt' changed at all, I really wish we could implement an autolock of old threads feature on these forums so silly pointless discussions don't resurface in an out of current context way.

piper - Aug 21, 2007 - 03:08 AM
Post subject:

Quote:

That's all this is saying, it's fine to be a skilled user, but don't assume average users have this knowledge, they do not, and they should not be expected to. So sidux posts advice that works for all users, and users who want to do as you do, are free to do so, but you need to start realizing that you are now more skilled than some users so what is 'safe' for you is not 'safe' for them. Got it?

This isn't even worth discussing since this hasnt' changed at all, I really wish we could implement an autolock of old threads feature on these forums so silly pointless discussions don't resurface in an out of current context way.

h2, I agree 100% hence

Quote:

but ... this is getting old

Some people just don't get it and has been drilled here and irc time after time, and dating back to the kanotix days and the same people argued then too

shame - Aug 21, 2007 - 07:38 AM
Post subject:

I know this keeps being brought up again and again and the same reasoning given time and time again but, like damentz said, synaptic does often seem portrayed as an evil entity that is there purely to destroy your system and nothing more.

The fact is, gui package managers are NOT SUPPORTED in sidux but many users will use unsupported repos and software and are usually warned that these things are unsupported and may damage the system but nothing gets the bad press of package managers.

Also, most distros appear to actively encourage the use of package managers and in some cases, such as yast in suse, are seen as a major flagship piece of software or selling point (though that's pretty laughable in yast's case).

I don't actually remember any other distros giving any kind of warnings against using package managers.

I'm not questioning the advice not to use package managers, nor am I questioning the advice of people that know much more than me about such things and I do follow the advice myself but I do sometimes wonder what is the source of these warnings and is there any specific documentation that proves package managers can cause major damage?

DeepDayze - Aug 21, 2007 - 12:29 PM
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Perhaps end this once and for all ? Upgrading using a GUI package manager within X/KDE is NOT a good idea as it was said many many times.

If you do so you take the risks...

*waits for thread to get locked*

shame - Aug 21, 2007 - 12:57 PM
Post subject:

Fair enough, but like I said, is there any documentation or proof that this can harm your system.

It seems to be people saying it COULD damage your system or it's likely to.
One or two people may say they have had systems borked after upgrading this compared to thousands using gui package managers that have never had a single problem.
And in fact, those people have have ended up with borked systems could have had problems caused by certain packages, not the way they upgraded.

Every time you drive your car there is a risk of getting killed but millions drive around every day without incident. Should everyone stop driving because of the small risk?

It seems the advice here is that synaptic and such WILL DEFINITELY bork your sytem eventually.

What I'm asking is, is there any proof that it WILL?

Of course the argument isn't that you can't use gui package managers, it's that it is unsupported and advised against but I've seen countless posts stating you must not or you shouldn't use them, simple as that.

Yes, we have been over this subject over and over again but has it REALLY been answered?

When there are people saying it will cause problems but many more having no problems at all, why should we believe one party over the other?

wegface - Aug 21, 2007 - 12:59 PM
Post subject:

Quote:

is there any specific documentation that proves package managers can cause major damage?

Sure do a d-u with synaptic next time kde or xorg uprades and watch your system break. Perhaps not docmentation, but as good a proof as any.
Shame: your car analogy is pretty poor- do millions of people drive the wrong way down the motorway, with no hands while not looking where there going? If they did we'd all be dead.

This thread should of been locked a loooong time ago. Wink

DeepDayze - Aug 21, 2007 - 12:59 PM
Post subject:

there have been reports of system breakage in the past when dist-upgrading in X...even with kanotix.

shame - Aug 21, 2007 - 01:09 PM
Post subject:

wegface wrote:

Shame: your car analogy is pretty poor- do millions of people drive the wrong way down the motorway, with no hands while not looking where there going? If they did we'd all be dead.)

Maybe, but we aren't talking about a little known app coming from some unknown unofficial repository, we are talking about apps which are officialy part of virtually every distro by default and the use of which appears actively encouraged by all other distros.

DeepDayze wrote:

there have been reports of system breakage in the past when dist-upgrading in X...even with kanotix.

There have been reports of system breakage in the past when upgrading X and kde regardless of how they are updated.

slam - Aug 21, 2007 - 01:19 PM
Post subject:

Ok, after years of talking about it, this is my last attempt trying to answer this topic:

You cannot compare a distribution running mostly directly from Debian Sid repositories with anything else. Almost every day you will find re-named packages, broken dependencies, lost libraries, minor packaging errors in here. This is business as usual for us. Our devs are watching the tides of Debian Sid every day, creating bug reports upstream and doing short term fixes. We are able to do that because we can rely on apt as the only package management tool doing exactly what it is told - and not more. It gives the power of decision to you with every probem occuring, while other tools tend to "make it a no-brainer" for you. They decide for you, following more or less simple rules. Those rules might be fine for Debian Stable - but they are definitely not for Debian Sid.

The reason you will find Adept, Synaptic or any other similar application recommended in other distributions is simple: They are based on STATIC REPOSITORIES, where changes after the initial release are rare and usually also well tested. Please understand that as an artificial salt water bassin in the zoo in Frankfurt - compared to the Pacific ocean of Debian Sid.

Or - differently put - a Mercedes 600SEL is a great car for cruising California's highways, but you definitely will not survive Paris-Dakar with it. Wink

Greetings,
Chris

DeepDayze - Aug 21, 2007 - 02:55 PM
Post subject:

So there you have it straight from the horse's mouth...

Case closed Smile

shame - Aug 21, 2007 - 03:06 PM
Post subject:

So you're saying the problem with gui package managers in sidux is down to the type of distro being used and not to do with installing/upgrading in X? (Which tends to be the main reason people give for not using synaptic etc).

Also, many distros have either dev versions or rolling versions like sid and they don't seem to consider it a problem.

<EDIT>

Ok, I get it, other distros have dev versions but they are not meant to be used on production systems (and sid for that matter), they are for testing and so it doesn't matter if things break.
The point of sidux is to turn sid into a production capable, stable os right?

So from that point of view, that's good enough for me.

DeepDayze - Aug 21, 2007 - 03:17 PM
Post subject:

There you go, shame...now you see the light Smile

slam - Aug 21, 2007 - 03:42 PM
Post subject:

Quote:

The point of sidux is to turn sid into a production capable, stable os right?

We did publish this initial plan some months ago, somewhere .... hm, let me search .... ah, yeah still here: http://sidux.com/Article2.html. Smile

Greetings,
Chris

devil - Aug 21, 2007 - 03:44 PM
Post subject:

shame,
very easy to do:
set up two systems for testing, upgrade one with apt-get, the other one with aptitude or adept for 2 weeks on a daily basis and then look at the systems and the package lists.

greetz
devil

h2 - Aug 21, 2007 - 03:47 PM
Post subject:

Shame, it's unclear to me how you could fail to grasp this stuff after this amount of time. Slam explained this, and has in the past explained this, as have many others. For a new user to fail to grasp this is fine, they are used to frozen release model, but you should know better by now, you work with this stuff directly, you package this stuff, how can you not grasp this point?

sidux is a rolling release, at any time of any day a brand new xorg lib, kde lib, or whatever else, can be pulled in as a dependency by any package you install. This is why using gui tools and working in x is such a bad idea for average users, they do not know what packages are dangerous to upgrade in x and which are safe. Just look at yourself, for example, you are by now far from a new user, and you STILL did not understand this concept.

Had you hung out more in irc over the last few years you would not feel the need to ask such questions, since you would have seen a non stop stream of broken and dead desktops come in asking for help, all of which did either an upgrade in x, or installed a package that pulled in key libs and broke kde / x.

Is there some mental block that keeps people from seeing reality here? This is not a subtle matter, it's not a secret, and it's the reason that the FIRST feature of the current smxi script, after I had in the first du fix, was to do an init 3 check/test, which I've made more and more robust over time. Why? Because after spending a few months on irc support, it become increasingly obvious that this was the TOP cause of user failures with kanotix. Why do we have to keep repeating this point to users who should long ago have realized this stuff isn't nonsense, and is based on a large collective pool of experience.

And, by the way, forcing the init 3 du in smxi worked, failures based on that cause dropped dramatically, and have remained dropped, since most people are doing it the safe way.

Have you ever considered, with your never ending stream of problems and issues, that maybe, just maybe, it's YOUR method that you might want to re-examine?

And by the way, I'm not making any apologies for a slightly unfriendly tone, you of all people should long ago have learned what sidux is, what a rolling release is, and why you need to work within safe parameters to maintain the system, since it is not in fact like other distros at all.

UncleDeadley - Aug 21, 2007 - 03:58 PM
Post subject:

Upgrading in X can be bad if anything that's running wants to get updated. That's how I borked my first system back with Libranet. It was Debian, but with a special set of 'tested to be compatible and not break your system' repository of newer apps that weren't officially in stable yet. The packages themselves were safe and compatible. But, the particular ones I upgraded that day needed to be done from console, w/ X shut down. So, really, there are two possible problems w/ upgrading using gui package manager.

1. you try to upgrade something that needs to be off (usually part of or dependency of X or kde) and it borks your system.

2. the package manager does something stupid because it can't tell that dependencies/names etc. have changed and it borks your system.

DeepDayze - Aug 21, 2007 - 04:20 PM
Post subject:

Well said, h2. I see this sort of thing in Ubuntu and Fedora and look at their forums..people bellyaching their systems broke with some update when they did the update while X/KDE/Gnome was active. I borked my system before and determined it was my fault that it broke. Agreed this subject is getting old fast. Some people just will never get it...

shame - Aug 21, 2007 - 04:38 PM
Post subject:

devil wrote:

shame,
very easy to do:
set up two systems for testing, upgrade one with apt-get, the other one with aptitude or adept for 2 weeks on a daily basis and then look at the systems and the package lists.

h2 wrote:

Oh dear, it seems my tone has been misunderstood, or more likely that my poor English didn't get it across.

I DO understand why it is a bad idea to use gui package managers and I haven't used them myself for some time (and not just in sidux, in other distros I've used in the past year or so) and I do all my dist-upgrades in init 3.

I was sort of trying (and clearly failed) to put my points from a new user's point of view.
Most new sidux users will have come from other distros, rather than windows, and will be used to package managers as a way of life and many of the anti-synaptic arguments I have seen on the forum tend to be statements that it will bork you system without specific reasons why, in particular I was thinking about the responses to Damentz (and yes, I am aware those specific reasons have been given in the past but as was discussed in the "less friendly" thread, sidux will keep gaining new users who will not be aware of them).

h2 wrote:

Have you ever considered, with your never ending stream of problems and issues, that maybe, just maybe, it's YOUR method that you might want to re-examine?

Actually, I haven't reported many problems lately Smile

You mentioned once before that my non standard setup may have been the cause of many problems I was having in the past and I did in fact take that onboard (as I do most of the advice here) and dumped my old setup and now I run everything pretty standard on my main installation, compiz fusion and multimedia stuff being the only extras and no gui package managers installed Very Happy

UncleDeadley - Aug 21, 2007 - 05:18 PM
Post subject:

You know, shame, you could have taken this in a completely different way, lots of people would have. I am so glad you didn't Smile

It shows your good character.

/me bows and takes hat off for shame

h2 - Aug 21, 2007 - 05:37 PM
Post subject:

shame, I didn't catch at all what you were trying to do, sorry. I think this is simply a question that will always plague sidux support, since, except for I believe Arch and Gentoo, all other distros are trained to use the frozen release/ upgrade to latest version dutifully model. So getting this cycle broken in new user minds will definitely be a challenge long term.

You're right about new users not knowing about old threads, that's a good point to keep in mind.

I'm not sure how to go about educating new users, having one and only one message to them about how to upgrade is a good start, since advanced users are always free to snicker and do what they want, while new users are well advised to follow the advice that they are given.

The main problem I think with the idea of synaptic plus new user is that the new user will inevitably fail to realize that the other packages being pulled in by package x or y are in fact core libs or system files.

I'm glad to see you changed methods too, now that you mention it, I had noticed, or rather, not noticed, new issue reports. With this unstable stuff, I'm growing more and more fond of just keeping the install as close to what I NEED rather than putting new stuff in all the time, though of course, this being debian, I find myself installing new tools fairly often, but now usually it's smaller command line stuff.

markb - Aug 21, 2007 - 10:43 PM
Post subject:

DeepDayze wrote:

there have been reports of system breakage in the past when dist-upgrading in X...even with kanotix.

This is not just an issue about X based package managers. Mention aptitude anywhere in these sidux forums and you will be shot in the face (as I have).

damentz - Aug 21, 2007 - 10:48 PM
Post subject:

Even I found aptitude terrible... it recommends removing to much and suggests lots of disruptive changes. There is just no need for aptitude. However, it catches different things in its search (do aptitude search vs an apt-cache search query)

DeepDayze - Aug 22, 2007 - 12:33 AM
Post subject:

aptitude is what the new apt is behaving like with the autoremove feature

JackieBrown - Aug 22, 2007 - 02:05 AM
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DeepDayze wrote:

aptitude is what the new apt is behaving like with the autoremove feature

the new apt is better. So with sidux we ignore gui package manangers and any updates to apt (or when they come we try to make it act like old apt.)

Now that's bleeding edge.

UncleDeadley - Aug 22, 2007 - 03:41 AM
Post subject:

Uh oh. Either JackieBrown is joking, or, to quote Markb, he's going to get shot in the face!

Richard - Aug 22, 2007 - 03:43 AM
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Aptitude has deteriorated. I found out over the last few days.

I thought to make a test and run aptitude until it broke.
However, I found myself disliking the first attempt, so,
# apt-get remove --purge aptitude

So I continue to run smxi in init 3 on Fridays usually.

And, I dist-upgrade in a console, usually daily, to see how things are progressing,
unless it seems too extreme, then I use -d or wait to do it in init 3.
I have less problems that way.

If I really want stability with sidux, I don't upgrade anything.
Reinstall my failsafe partition with each new liveCD and track lenny. It's always there, but not used. But I do run a dist-upgrade via smxi from time to time. Which probably negates the whole idea.

But I like to keep looking at the new stuff. Somewhere there is a happy medium. Just not sure where it is. I think we worry too much about the new stuff.

I would like to stop, but I think I'm addicted, like Rodneyck.
How to get the monkey off my back?

wegface - Aug 22, 2007 - 09:47 AM
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Quote:

the new apt is better. So with sidux we ignore gui package manangers and any updates to apt (or when they come we try to make it act like old apt.)

Now that's bleeding edge.

jackiebrown: seeing as you dont even run sidux- i wonder why you feel the need to make silly remarks like that- whats up doesnt anyone take any notice of you on the debian forums?

craigevil - Aug 22, 2007 - 12:53 PM
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aptitude is crap the sooner the Debian devs realize that and work more on APT the better things will be. As for GUI package managers they are OK to look at packages and perhaps to even install a package or 2, but the first time you use SYnaptic/adept to do a d-u and it updates KDE/X you are looking to have a screwed up system on your hands.

DeepDayze - Aug 22, 2007 - 01:02 PM
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aptitude's what the stable users use...but its not a great package manager for sid

shame - Aug 23, 2007 - 11:47 PM
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Since my attempt to be a bit clever backfired and came across more like an attempt to completely undermine sidux, I thought I'd try adding something a bit more constructive.

I still didn't really get my point across properly. What I was trying to do was point out that most new sidux users will have used at least one other distro and as such my even consider themselves a bit knowledgable.
Whereas a real newbie may blindly follow any advice given, a more experienced user who is used to graphical package managers may be more likely to want to know why they are given this advice if it's not explained exactly why the advice is being given, hence my rather argumentative posts (which of course, weren't my real feelings on the matter).

I really don't know what is the best way of approaching this.

I have been reading several reviews a little earlier and pretty much every single one made a point of highlighting graphical package managers.
In particular, I saw 2 reviews of sidux gaia, one noted the absense of synaptic by default and the other recommended installing BOTH synaptic and adept.

So of course this doesn't help matters but what can be done?

I have mentioned that users are often told not to use synaptic without really being told why, whereas by comparison, when certain multimedia is mentioned the replies almost always point out the legal issues immediately.

I would suggest maybe a sticky post detailing all the reasons why gui package managers shouldn't be used with sidux and future questions on the subject could be replied to with a link to the sticky (for those who still ask questions without reading stickies).

In fact the same could also be done with the multimedia questions also?

Incidentally, during my very frequent distro hopping, I have used pretty much every package manager in existence and I don't think I've found one case where using a gui one is any easier than it's command line version (except maybe for searching).

slam - Aug 24, 2007 - 07:36 AM
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shame wrote:

I would suggest maybe a sticky post detailing all the reasons why gui package managers shouldn't be used with sidux and future questions on the subject could be replied to with a link to the sticky (for those who still ask questions without reading stickies).

That's a great idea - as you are the native speaker when it comes to the two of us, please go on and use the information collected here to create such post. Wink

I will make it sticky afterwards so it can be used for further reference.

Regarding the m-media-stuff, these problems are already clearly explained in our site's code of conduct http://sidux.com/index.php?module=pnWik ... dexsiduxEN . Please link there instead of explaining the legal problems when asked.

Greetings,
Chris

acidburned - Aug 24, 2007 - 02:57 PM
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h2 wrote:

thats all i use is synaptic,and i have never ran into a problem,infact its saved me at times.

acidburned - Aug 24, 2007 - 03:00 PM
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shame wrote:

using a gui for packages is easier to us newbies.we dont always know the name of the package and they help.

shame - Aug 24, 2007 - 03:45 PM
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You can always use synaptic for searching then install using apt-get.
To quote from the manual:

Quote:

This small inconvenience can save you hours of work later

Plus, you will learn much more from using the command line then you ever will with a gui.

@ slam
I will give the sticky thread a go a little later today when I have more spare time.

shame - Aug 25, 2007 - 12:09 AM
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Right, I've had a go at the sticky thread.
It mostly quotes from the sidux manual with a couple of other bits and bobs thrown in.

Let me know if it's ok or if anything needs adding | changing | removing.

http://www.sidux.com/index.php?name=PNp ... 2738#42738

UncleDeadley - Aug 25, 2007 - 12:55 AM
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shame wrote:

Shame- very nice. I remember reading those various bits and pieces! You might add a line about how d-u in X will break X when gui package manager tries to update X or any of it's dependencies.