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General Support - apt-get or aptitude

xpt - Feb 25, 2007 - 10:12 PM
Post subject: apt-get or aptitude

Hi,

I saw lots of people here are still recommending apt-get (instead of aptitude). So I'm wondering, are sidux packages initially installed by aptitude or apt-get?

PS. about aptitude.

aptitude has a command line interface very similar to apt-get, if you like apt-get, then you will love aptitude. What aptitude has over apt-get is that it tracks which packages have been installed manually and which have been installed automatically (i. e. to fulfill dependencies). Automatically installed packages will be uninstalled as soon as they are no longer needed. I.e., when an automatically installed package is no longer needed when the last package depending on it is removed, aptitude will remove that too.

piper - Feb 25, 2007 - 10:40 PM
Post subject: RE: apt-get or aptitude

http://sidux.com/PNphpBB2-viewtopic-t-4 ... itude.html

Not advised for SID or sidux

slam - Feb 25, 2007 - 10:41 PM
Post subject: RE: apt-get or aptitude

Quote:

.... Automatically installed packages will be uninstalled as soon as they are no longer needed. I.e., when an automatically installed package is no longer needed when the last package depending on it is removed, aptitude will remove that too.

Wow! - a wow!-application in Linux! That's so - wow! - fantastic innovative, I can't really believe it! An application I don't just might use, but even love!

Official answer: This tool is very much depreciated in sidux because it's not designed to handle the complex situations in Debian Sid. Don't use it, we will not support it and any problems you might later on run into because you insisted to use it.

It might have it's place in stabilized repositories (Debian Stable, Ubuntu), however.

Greetings,
Chris

slh - Feb 25, 2007 - 11:01 PM
Post subject: RE: apt-get or aptitude

You'll find a number of exhaustive reasonings from slam or me why we do not recommend aptitude on debian sid and therefore sidux, as aptitude isn't even installed on the ISO we do not and will not use it to create the ISO (or for anything else), just like aptitude isn't an option for buildds.

If you as the end user prefer aptitude, feel free to install and use it yourself, we will recommend against it though.

xpt - Feb 25, 2007 - 11:06 PM
Post subject: RE: apt-get or aptitude

so, what is recommended for house cleaning then, if I install sidux?

apt-get + manual, or ...?

devil - Feb 25, 2007 - 11:10 PM
Post subject: RE: apt-get or aptitude

if you want more comfort in searching, use kpackage or synaptic.
for installing or removing stuff, better use apt.

greetz
devil

piper - Feb 25, 2007 - 11:30 PM
Post subject: RE: apt-get or aptitude

Code:

apt-get remove --purge application

slam - Feb 25, 2007 - 11:48 PM
Post subject: RE: apt-get or aptitude

House cleaning - one of many possible examples (only needed if free disk space is low):

Code:

apt-get clean

while D=$(deborphan);test -n "$D"; do apt-get remove --purge --yes $D; done

remove-orphans

Also a re-boot once a week does free some additional space.
Greetings,
Chris

BlueShadow - Feb 26, 2007 - 12:08 AM
Post subject: RE: apt-get or aptitude

xpt, did you have a look on h2's script? There a lot of cleaning options included

xpt - Feb 26, 2007 - 03:31 AM
Post subject: RE: apt-get or aptitude

thanks everyone for the reply.

Form the responds, I have a feeling that devil and piper never bothered to clean the left-over libs that the trial installations throw in, and slam does it only when free disk space is low.

I on the other hand, like a clean system -- it bothers me when I have a packages that I don't actually need, but have to keep updating (and maintaining) it. Well, guess I have to go with the aptitude solution at my own risk then. It might be not that capable, but it does gives me a clean system without much hassle -- I'm using Debian Testing currently, and for nearly a year, I haven't met a situation that is too complex for aptitude to handle.

@BlueShadow, thanks for the advice, I'll sure take a look at the h2's script.

piper - Feb 26, 2007 - 03:38 AM
Post subject: RE: apt-get or aptitude

Quote:

Form the responds, I have a feeling that devil and piper never bothered to clean the left-over libs that the trial installations throw in, and slam does it only when free disk space is low.

I don't have time for that, after I am done building the iso, testing it, I have to do it all over again, makes it kind of useless don't you think Wink

. If I had too, I would do it like slam, or make a "kick" list, and like said above the script does this all for you

markb - Feb 26, 2007 - 10:15 PM
Post subject: RE: apt-get or aptitude

The rhetoric does not match my personal experience however. I've used aptitude exclusively on kanotix and now on sidux for coming on 3 years and never had a problem (well other than the universal xorg/kde major transition issues we all saw). I update frequently so can it just be luck? When apt-get finally includes automatic dependency removal I may start using it. Call me a neat freak if you will. Wink

slam - Feb 27, 2007 - 08:48 AM
Post subject: RE: apt-get or aptitude

Well, there is an important difference between a clean system and a broken system. Wink

Personal experiences (even if they are long term) are important for all of us to build opinions, but those are not relevant here.

Just an example: You may have 30 years of experience that it is no problem at all to have no fire insurance for your house, but if a fire actually destroys your house - what is your experience worth by then? There always was this risk and an useful and affordable solution to manage this risk, but you simply ignored it.

What really counts here are technical facts as a base to give the sidux community advice it can count on. Fact is that aptitude is not always able the huge amount of changes which happen in Sid (depency changes, name changes, maintainer script changes, ...). That's not the fault of aptitude developers though, they wrote a nice tool which is simply just not suitable for the very special needs of Debian Sid.

So, use whatever you like to search for packages, but stick with apt-get for actually installing/removing/dist-upgrading.

Greetings,
Chris

slh - Feb 27, 2007 - 12:06 PM
Post subject: RE: apt-get or aptitude

....and yes, apt-get vs. aptitude is indeed a discussion based upon personal opinions and experiences, but our collective experiences suggested that aptitude is at least non-deterministic (for a complex package selection you don't know for sure), mix that with a quickly moving target like sid and even worse external repository of questionable quality (we don't use or recommend those, but they're a reality on user systems) and you're calling for disaster. apt-get on the other hand strictly does what itis asked to do, if there is any breakage you can pinpoint and debug/ fix the cause, if it wants to remove half of the system (due to library transitions) it's the admin's call to have at least a casual look - aptitude tries just to be too damned smart for its own good (there is a reason why debian buildds use apt-get, not aptitude).

Ironwalker - Feb 27, 2007 - 05:50 PM
Post subject: RE: apt-get or aptitude

Quote:

aptitude tries just to be too damned smart for its own good (there is a reason why debian buildds use apt-get, not aptitude).

If you allow it to,or have those options on giveing it permission to try and be too smart for it's own good.....agreed! Smile

h3sp4wn - Apr 16, 2007 - 07:18 PM
Post subject: RE: apt-get or aptitude

I will always use aptitude it logs everything it does to /var/log/aptitude asks you if its potentially risky and gives you the options. Even for sid I was recommended by stew and dondelelcaro in #debian to still use it. Either of them ask what you want to do - anytime you break your system its your own fault. Its search patterns are much more intuative than those of apt-cache. And you can always use it interactively if the system gets in a real mess.

slam - Apr 16, 2007 - 07:27 PM
Post subject: RE: apt-get or aptitude

Quote:

Even for sid I was recommended by stew and dondelelcaro in #debian to still use it.

Both are respectable members of the Debian community, bu also well known for NOT USING DEBIAN SID ON A DAY TO DAY PRODUCTIVE BASE. Please respect our advice against aptitude here - we actually are using Debian Sid day to day in productive and business setups.

You should additional try to understand the code base of aptitude before promoting it - sorry to say.

Greetings,
Chris

h3sp4wn - Apr 16, 2007 - 08:18 PM
Post subject: RE: apt-get or aptitude

I understand the algorithm it uses - its very elegant actually. (and the relevant mathematics) I have actually studied that before.

You know nothing of what I understand.

k thx

devil - Apr 16, 2007 - 08:40 PM
Post subject: RE: apt-get or aptitude

do what you like, but dont tell others what they know and not know.
and please dont propagate aptitude here!
thanks

greetz
devil

h3sp4wn - Apr 16, 2007 - 08:45 PM
Post subject: RE: apt-get or aptitude

The nothing of what I understand was a direct response to :

"You should additional try to understand the code base of aptitude before promoting it - sorry to say."

rodneyck - Apr 16, 2007 - 08:52 PM
Post subject: RE: apt-get or aptitude

Settle down now guys...back in your corners. Smile

h3sp4wn, as noted, you are free to dance naked under the pale moon light and use aptitude until your heart explodes, but it is probably not wise to go against the advice of the developers who...well...develop and know the system, in a more intimate way. *notices Chris is fondling his disk drive*

peace!

piper - Apr 16, 2007 - 10:53 PM
Post subject: RE: apt-get or aptitude

Quote:

dance naked under the pale moon light

Meatloaf ?

rodneyck - Apr 16, 2007 - 11:05 PM
Post subject: Re: RE: apt-get or aptitude

piper wrote:

Quote:

dance naked under the pale moon light

Meatloaf ?

Actually, I think you are correct. You get a free sidux CD Piper..*loud applause*

However, I was channeling Batman...when the Joker says...

Quote:

Well, miss vale
Ever dance with the devil in the pale moon light?
I always ask that of all my prey.
I just like the sound of it.
(screams)
. . . . . . . . . .
This town needs an enema!

piper - Apr 16, 2007 - 11:11 PM
Post subject: RE: Re: RE: apt-get or aptitude

hehe lol

that too

Glanz - Apr 16, 2007 - 11:44 PM
Post subject: RE: Re: RE: apt-get or aptitude

I can't dance!
Darn!
And as an experienced Debian user, I would NEVER advise using Aptitude naked... even on ETCH.

No, kidding aside, aptitude is fine for a release version like ETCH. But for using it on any system not using strict vanilla meta-packages, it will cause problems.

JackieBrown - Apr 17, 2007 - 01:28 AM
Post subject: RE: Re: RE: apt-get or aptitude

Here is an example on why not to use aptitude.

http://lists.debian.org/debian-kde/2007 ... 00014.html

Regarding metapackages

Quote:

> the problem is in the 'smarts' of aptitude not being smart enough
=> the solution is making aptitude smart enought to handle metapackages which it currently isn't

Ironwalker - Apr 17, 2007 - 03:10 AM
Post subject: RE: Re: RE: apt-get or aptitude

So,telling aptitude to "not remove unused pakages" doesn't matter...it's still dumb?

Dutchy - Apr 17, 2007 - 09:25 AM
Post subject: RE: Re: RE: apt-get or aptitude

One can get similar functionality of aptitude by using apt-get combined with deborphan. The combination is much safer because deborphan will delete packages that are no longer needed, but it will not delete things you just installed like aptitude will. The biggest problem with aptitude is it gets confused when encountering meta-packages.

Now, let us please drop the subject and just tell people to use apt-get like the developers want.

hubi - Apr 17, 2007 - 10:28 AM
Post subject: Re: RE: Re: RE: apt-get or aptitude

JackieBrown wrote:

Here is an example on why not to use aptitude.

http://lists.debian.org/debian-kde/2007 ... 00014.html

Aptitude would remove kdmtheme on one of my boxes, just because I am not using a theme at the moment, but I would not want to get rid of the theme manager, because tomorrow I could change my mind wanting a theme again.

The other thing: if there are some inconsistencies in Sid (like now), aptitude really gets confused that I have testing and experimental enabled as well, so I get lists of alternate suggestions one really has to study before hitting "GO!".

For me, a plain "319 packages would be removed" from apt-get is easier. I just leave it then Mr. Green

hubi

Glanz - Apr 17, 2007 - 11:32 AM
Post subject: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: apt-get or aptitude

"Experimental" simply doesn't exist as far as aptitude is concerned, or if it does, it's just background noise. If anyone here has used Ubuntu (poor suckers), they surely have noticed that distro's dependency on meta packages in the past. It's as if they use aptitude scripts. For example, I have a friend who is boycotting everything Novell who wanted to remove all Novell developed stuff. Well, that destroyed his Ubuntu install.... Very tricky with OO.o... Ubuntu has a philosophy somewhat like Micro$chluk: take it all, or take nothing at all. Their "updater" depends on metas. So I helped my friend out and dumped his "automated-robotic-bigbrother-ubuntu-orbiting" updater first thing...., then OO.o completely, then reinstalled OO.o without all the Novellish M$ compatible crapola. Then the other day, he dumped a GNOME app he didn't need and Gnome was half uninstalled. I brought him a nice new shiny sidux full install CD. Problem solved.

DeepDayze - Apr 17, 2007 - 01:33 PM
Post subject: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: apt-get or aptitude

All this is a darned good argument to NOT use aptitude or adept in Sid. This debate been raging on for ages, but the example jackiebrown posted is a good reason why NOT to use Aptitude at all. Apt-get along with deborphan's a good way to manage packages in Sid, as Sid's a rather bumpy thing.

So for sidux, lets let this debate rest Smile

h2 - Apr 17, 2007 - 05:16 PM
Post subject: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: apt-get or aptitude

from what I can tell, h3sp4wn is by his own admission not even a sidux user, but does run debian sid. But only as one among many of his test systems. Which means he probably has very good to excellent general knowledge of these unix based systems, but very average knowledge of sidux, at best.

So why he exactly feels the need to chime in about the preferred means of maintaining and updating a system he doesn't appear to be even really running as his primary os, well, that's actually beyond me, and I won't bother trying to figure it out.

Again, give this some thought: people who run this day in and day out as their primary system just might know this stuff a little better than someone who is just playing around with it. Even if the person playing is generally knowledgeable.

I look forward to some of that knowledge being contributed some day in a positive way, we'll see, maybe it will be, that would be nice.

For other readers of this thread, keep this in mind. The people telling you not to run aptitude are the people who run fulltime, and maintain, this distro, and are the very same ones you will find day in and day out on irc helping users with their problems.

anticapitalista - Apr 18, 2007 - 12:55 AM
Post subject: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: apt-get or aptitude

I really cannot understand why anyone would prefer to use aptitude etc (ie and equivalents) rather than the good ol' reliable apt-get. Especially as no-one has given any reason why apt-get is"a problem" ?!?!?!!!???

markb - Apr 18, 2007 - 10:57 AM
Post subject: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: apt-get or aptitude

anticapitalista wrote:

Well you asked, so see what Joey Hess says: http://linux.derkeiler.com/Mailing-List ... /3181.html

slh - Apr 18, 2007 - 11:26 AM
Post subject: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: apt-get or aptitude

Our recommendation towards apt-get and strictly against aptitude still stands, I'm not going to repeat that reasoning again and again. You're free to do whatever you like on your system, but if it breaks, you may keep the pieces.

anticapitalista - Apr 18, 2007 - 12:38 PM
Post subject: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: apt-get or aptitude

Thanks for the link markb. I'll still be using apt-get though.

slam - Apr 18, 2007 - 05:41 PM
Post subject: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: apt-get or aptitude

markb wrote:

anticapitalista wrote:

Well you asked, so see what Joey Hess says: http://linux.derkeiler.com/Mailing-List ... /3181.html

And what kinda argument is that? We are talking here about Debian Sid/sidux - not about running Debian stable. Please folks stop to recommend stuff "some Debian guy" "somwehere recommended" "in general for running Debian /stable".

I promise this one was the last post I wrote regarding usage of aptitude in Debian Sid. And let me add: If you feel you don't like to believe what core sidux devs tell you about the very system they created for you - well, you better use another one. Sorry for the hard words, but there seems to be some huge misunderstanding about what sidux devs do and why sidux exists.

Greetings,
Chris

h3sp4wn - Apr 18, 2007 - 06:55 PM
Post subject: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: apt-get or aptitude

Remember the Debian guys have put far more into sid than - grml / sidux or any other sid based distro. Even ubuntu has (look at who is fixing alot of the issues with apt recently they are nearly all canocial employee's)

h2 wrote:

I have run one of ubuntu unstable or sid for 2 years no reinstall hopping between as and when I felt like it on my home desktop - I can handle the worst when it comes to apt breakage I have tested it - - (If you want to try it then break stuff and try to fix it - good candidates are perl (breaks loads of stuff and corrupts stuff if you use the package manager while using it), pam (stops login), coreutils, libpthread (breaks dpkg), apt, aptitude). I use the updated wpa_supplicant and madwifi from the sidux repos (when they exist).

Work is Aix and Solaris (mainly) and some RHEL. Pretty dull at the moment. But my work desktop runs sid (I am more careful with that) and there is a development machine running Solaris 11 express domU's at the moment (running sid updated only as necessary).

As far as I know the goal was stated as 100% debian sid compatibility (until the nvidia script makes deb's that is not true. (as it breaks X far more often than just using deb's)

Anyway grml recommends aptitude (and is debian sid + a tiny bit extra like sidux - I prefer fluxbox to kde anyway (e17 over all though) - http://wiki.grml.org/doku.php?id=upgrading.

aptitude --with-recommends install foo (install recommended packages automatically)
aptitude --without-recommends install foo (don't do above)
aptitude search \~c (find all config files left but not purged)
aptitude purge \~c (get rid of above)
aptitude install kde~i/experimental (upgrade kde to experimental)
aptitude install kde~i/unstable (downgrade again - i.e if something breaks)
aptitude markauto / unmarkauto foo (if it wants to remove something you know you need)
aptitude search \~Aexperimental~i (list what you have currently from experimental that might be causing issues)
aptitude markauto \~i && aptitude unmarkauto \~M!~R~i (bit like debfoster) then remark everything you do want. (if at some point there is an unused dependancy that was once needed aptitude will get rid of it for you).

Even if one day it took me 24 hours to fix something directly caused only by aptitude I would still be happy as the convenience I have had vastly makes up for it.

I played with compiz for 15 mins or so once. aptitude made removing the crap painless. the apt-cache regular expressions never seem to be used correctly. leading to lots of | grep stuff when with aptitude its so simple to
isolate just the programs you want and then you can do a purge

Also everything is logged in such a nice way its painless to revert

===============================================================================
[UPGRADE] kcontrol 4:3.5.5a.dfsg.1-6 -> 4:3.5.6.dfsg.1-2
[UPGRADE] kdebase-bin 4:3.5.5a.dfsg.1-6 -> 4:3.5.6.dfsg.1-2
[UPGRADE] kdebase-data 4:3.5.5a.dfsg.1-6 -> 4:3.5.6.dfsg.1-2
[UPGRADE] kdelibs 4:3.5.5a.dfsg.1-8 -> 4:3.5.6.r1.dfsg.1-2
[UPGRADE] kdelibs-data 4:3.5.5a.dfsg.1-8 -> 4:3.5.6.r1.dfsg.1-2
[UPGRADE] kdelibs4c2a 4:3.5.5a.dfsg.1-8 -> 4:3.5.6.r1.dfsg.1-2
[UPGRADE] kicker 4:3.5.5a.dfsg.1-6 -> 4:3.5.6.dfsg.1-2
===============================================================================

2007-04-18 15:07:05 status half-installed kdelibs 4:3.5.5a.dfsg.1-8
2007-04-18 15:07:05 status unpacked kdelibs 4:3.5.6.r1.dfsg.1-2
2007-04-18 15:07:05 status unpacked kdelibs 4:3.5.6.r1.dfsg.1-2
2007-04-18 15:07:05 status unpacked kdelibs-data 4:3.5.6.r1.dfsg.1-2
2007-04-18 15:07:05 status unpacked kdelibs-data 4:3.5.6.r1.dfsg.1-2
2007-04-18 15:07:05 status unpacked kdelibs-data 4:3.5.6.r1.dfsg.1-2
2007-04-18 15:07:05 status unpacked kdelibs-data 4:3.5.6.r1.dfsg.1-2
2007-04-18 15:07:05 status unpacked kdelibs-data 4:3.5.6.r1.dfsg.1-2
2007-04-18 15:07:05 status unpacked kdelibs-data 4:3.5.6.r1.dfsg.1-2
2007-04-18 15:07:05 status unpacked kdelibs-data 4:3.5.6.r1.dfsg.1-2
2007-04-18 15:07:05 status unpacked kdelibs-data 4:3.5.6.r1.dfsg.1-2
2007-04-18 15:07:05 status unpacked kdelibs-data 4:3.5.6.r1.dfsg.1-2
2007-04-18 15:07:05 status unpacked kdelibs-data 4:3.5.6.r1.dfsg.1-2
2007-04-18 15:07:05 status unpacked kdelibs-data 4:3.5.6.r1.dfsg.1-2
2007-04-18 15:07:05 status unpacked kdelibs-data 4:3.5.6.r1.dfsg.1-2
2007-04-18 15:07:05 status unpacked kdelibs-data 4:3.5.6.r1.dfsg.1-2
2007-04-18 15:07:05 status unpacked kdelibs-data 4:3.5.6.r1.dfsg.1-2
2007-04-18 15:07:05 status unpacked kdelibs-data 4:3.5.6.r1.dfsg.1-2
2007-04-18 15:07:05 status unpacked kdelibs-data 4:3.5.6.r1.dfsg.1-2
2007-04-18 15:07:05 status unpacked kdelibs-data 4:3.5.6.r1.dfsg.1-2
2007-04-18 15:07:05 status half-configured kdelibs-data 4:3.5.6.r1.dfsg.1-2
2007-04-18 15:07:05 status installed kdelibs-data 4:3.5.6.r1.dfsg.1-2
2007-04-18 15:07:05 status unpacked kdelibs4c2a 4:3.5.6.r1.dfsg.1-2
2007-04-18 15:07:05 status unpacked kdelibs4c2a 4:3.5.6.r1.dfsg.1-2
2007-04-18 15:07:05 status half-configured kdelibs4c2a 4:3.5.6.r1.dfsg.1-2
2007-04-18 15:07:08 status installed kdelibs4c2a 4:3.5.6.r1.dfsg.1-2
2007-04-18 15:07:08 status unpacked kdebase-data 4:3.5.6.dfsg.1-2
(above is imcomplete but you get the idea)
compared to that from dpkg.log even in the event of aptitude trashing it completely simple to just dpkg -i the old versions back in.

(last comment I will make on the subject anyway). I can do most of the above examples with pipelines and apt-{cache,get} / awk / xargs.

There is enough beryl > {random wm} fanboys anyway.
mine are -

aptitude > apt-{get,cache}
zsh > bash

(last comment I will make on the subject anyway). Even though I can do most of the above examples with pipelines and apt-{cache,get} / awk / xargs its more effort.

If anyone does have huge issues caused by aptitude (After reading the doc's) on sid - hassle me about it (in #debian on freenode)

thanks Wink

(I do really need a job where they work me harder)

<h2 cleaned up dual pasted item.... proof reading your posting is also not a bad idea>

DeepDayze - Apr 18, 2007 - 07:30 PM
Post subject: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: apt-get or aptitude

Its YOUR system...as the devs say that upgrading packages in an unorthodox way will mean that any issues caused by using packagers that are not supported means you are on your own...

slh - Apr 18, 2007 - 07:45 PM
Post subject: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: apt-get or aptitude

I will lock this thread now, as all comments are running in circles and 1st and 3rd page are almost identical.

Fact is:
- you can do whatever you like on your property, after all you're the one bearing the consequences of your actions.
- a second fact is that none of the sidux developers (and that's what we're talking about) recommends using aptitude on sidux, because we don't think it's up to the job.
--> pick your poison.

For anyone really interested in the reasons for this advice, please scroll back to the first page and look at other posts slam or me have contributed to this topic in other parts of the board.